Health Secretary Wes Streeting says waiting lists need to be "millions lower" by the next general election in 2029.
That may mean using private health care to help the NHS, he told Trevor Phillips.
Mr Streeting also defended ending winter fuel payments for pensioners.
Live updates: https://news.sky.com/story/politics-latest-winter-fuel-payment-labour-keir-starmer-budget-tory-leadership-12593360
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