20 years in the CIA. 23 years across the Air Force and Space Force.
Julia Curlee and Colonel Bree Fram were two of the most senior transgender officials in US national security. Then Donald Trump returned to the White House.
In this in-depth interview, they describe being forced out, the chaos inside the National Security Council, and how the American security system has been dismantled.
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US Editor Anushka Asthana sits down with Julia Curlee, former senior CIA officer (2007-26) who is now working as a Public Service Fellow at Lawfare and Colonel Bree Fram who served in the United States Air Force (2003-21) and United States Space Force (2021-2025).
Produced by Mahnoor Akhlaq, Matthew Cundall, Gracie Jerome & Isobel Rowland
Filmed by Ben Martin
Edited by: Eammon Ashton-Atkinson
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